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2-N-TOW

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About 2-N-TOW

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  • Birthday 08/31/1961

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    Suffolk, VA
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    Boats, fishing, doing stuff with my 2 boys and sharing life's adventures with my wife!

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  1. I hope for your sake it is loose bolts, but my gut says the gel seal between the two machined surfaces may be compromised and you already know what that means.
  2. Thread is continued here: Locking this one to prevent additional posts. Please post on the above linked thread.
  3. How about this for the engine mounting holes. Overdrill the holes 1/16". Tape around the holes on the transom both inside and outside. Mix up either resin or epoxy a little "hot" and use a brush to thoroughly coat the raw wood inside the holes. You may need to do it twice as that end grain will soak up the resin and that is a good thing. This will seal up the wood pretty good. Then finish off with your worker's suggestion on the marine sealant. This way you have two layers of protection against water intrusion. Glass work looks great! How many layers of fabric did he apply to the inside...that thing looks bullet proof. Are you going to cover the core with a couple layers of fiberglass or going back with a trim cap? If not glassing, do the same to that raw wood as I recommended for the engine mounting holes and soak that wood with some resin prior to installing the cap.
  4. Hi John and welcome to the forum. I am not familiar with the plumbing on your boat, but here are some suggestions. Is the freshwater tank empty now? I would guess the dealer drained the tank, then blew compressed air into a hose on the inlet side of the pump after opening all the downstream valves so the water could be forced out of the system. Same principle would be used on the washdown pump. While messing with the washdown pump, now is a good time to "excercise" the seacock valve opening and closing it a few times to be sure it is not frozen. If you have a diagram of the plumbing or can post some pictures of the pumps, we might be able add more detail to this.
  5. You mentioned the stringers were rotten where they tied into the transom. How far forward in the stringer did the rot go? I bet your boat is like mine in that the woven roving the factory wrapped around the stringers is relatively strong even with that rot in there. As long as the fiberglass around the stringer is intact, structurally sound, and the tabbing has not pulled loose from the hull, I would just dig out as much of the rotten wood as possible. Once you get to good solid wood, mix up some resin and cabosil and pack it into the raw end of the stringer to seal it off from any future water intrusion the best you can. Don't be too concerned about filling the void inside the fiberglass wrapping the old stringer, it is fine. Think about it...modern boats use a fiberglass grid system that is hollow. It is the shape of the grid that gives it the structural rigidity. To some degree that stringer acted as a mold for wrapping the roving around to create its version of a grid system. When you go back to tabbing the transom to the stringer,. run the fabric as far forward as possible to get the best tie in possible between the two structures. While the back of the boat is opened, get a piece of 1" pvc pipe and glass it in at the bottom of the stringer where it will butt up against the transom. It should extend beyond the sides of the stringer. This will be a drain to allow water to get to the bilge that may get out the outboard sides of the stringers. Bed the pipe in a thickened resin mix and tab in the best you can with the fiberglass mat to create a water tight fit. You noted in a previous post your observation that the holes for bolts and other stuff in the transom allowed water intrusion and how to prevent this from happening again. Here are two suggestions to do this. First one is to over drill the size of the hole needed, fill the hole with thickened resin then let it set up. Go back the next day and re-drill the hole for the correct size. This way the cured resin will act like a bushing. Another option is similar where you overdrill the hole big enough to slide a section of pvc pipe into the transom. The pipe has to be the close to the same inside diameter as the bolts that will be passing through. Once you got the pipe fitted, pull it back out and pack the hole with thickened resin and the outside of the pipe. Slide it back into the transom and let it set up. Next day trim it flush and you now have a permanent, waterproof transom penetration.
  6. Latest round of pictures from plib: Fiberglass fabric: What you guys are doing is great. To be honest, you may be overbuilding it, but that is not a bad thing. I like how each sheet of plywood is getting covered in mat and tabbed to the bottom of the hull. The fabric is accomplishing the same thing I was talking about when using thickened resin between each sheet of plywood; it is insuring ample resin is preset between the two sheets to allow for a good bond. It also appears that you guys have figured out a way to pull each sheet of plywood up tight to the outer skin and each piece of core. And if you can work that woven roving fabric...please pass on some pointers! I got spoiled with the stitched fabrics since the "threads" were not as thick and heavy in standard roving, which allowed them to conform to angles easier. You mentioned the stringers were rotten where they tied into the transom. How far forward in the stringer did the rot go? I bet your boat is like mine in that the woven roving the factory wrapped around the stringers is relatively strong even with that rot in there. As long as the fiberglass around the stringer is intact, structurally sound, and the tabbing has not pulled loose from the hull, I would just dig out as much of the rotten wood as possible. Once you get to good solid wood, mix up some resin and cabosil and pack it into the raw end of the stringer to seal it off from any future water intrusion the best you can. Don't be too concerned about filling the void inside the fiberglass wrapping the old stringer, it is fine. Think about it...modern boats use a fiberglass grid system that is hollow. It is the shape of the grid that gives it the structural rigidity. To some degree that stringer acted as a mold for wrapping the roving around to create its version of a grid system. When you go back to tabbing the transom to the stringer,. run the fabric as far forward as possible to get the best tie in possible between the two structures. While the back of the boat is opened, get a piece of 1" pvc pipe and glass it in at the bottom of the stringer where it will butt up against the transom. It should extend beyond the sides of the stringer. This will be a drain to allow water to get to the bilge that may get out the outboard sides of the stringers. Bed the pipe in a thickened resin mix and tab in the best you can with the fiberglass mat to create a water tight fit. You noted in a previous post your observation that the holes for bolts and other stuff in the transom allowed water intrusion and how to prevent this from happening again. Here are two suggestions to do this. First one is to over drill the size of the hole needed, fill the hole with thickened resin then let it set up. Go back the next day and re-drill the hole for the correct size. This way the cred resin will act like a bushing. Another option is similar where you overdrill the hole big enough to slide a section of pvc pipe into the transom. The pipe has to be the close to the same inside diameter as the bolts that will be passing through. Once you got the pipe fitted, pull it back out and pack the hole with thickened resin and the outside of the pipe. Slide it back into the transom and let it set up. Next day trim it flush and you now have a permanent, waterproof transom penetration.
  7. Here is a picture of my transom core bedded in. I used a combination of clamps and wood screws to pull it up against the outer skin as tight as possible and force out any voids between the two. This is also why I recommend using a thickened resin mix so it will cling to the vertical surfaces. One thing I did was use a notched trowel to put the thickened vynilester on both surfaces. You can also see what I am talking about regarding the radiused filet between the core and hull side. Fiberglass cloth does not take kindly to working a sharp inside corner, so this makes the transition much better and insures a transition with no air pockets underneath. Just drag a 1" piece of pvc pipe along that joint to make the filet, then clean up any excess resin that is not part of the filet. The fabric to use for glass would be 1708 biaxial cloth. It has great strength characteristics and is easy to work with. It has 2 layers of fabric with fibers running 90 degrees to each other, plus a layer of mat stitched to the bottom to help retain resin and prevent a resin-starved laminate. 3 layers should be sufficient to cover the outside of the transom. After the final layer of biax cloth is in place, top of with a layer of mat to fill in the weave and give you a sacrificial layer for smoothing out prior to finishing.
  8. Here the update to this morning. Boat is ready for the rebuild. The plywood has been cut and all the transom properly cleaned for glassing. I will put 3 layer on the internal part of the transom, then the first sheet of plywood and 3 more layer of fiberglass. Wait to dry before putting and fiberglassing the 2 sheet. I will attach some photo of today. I think the boat is a 1982 5m cc robalo. The hull number or what is left is on a photo attached. If you need some specific photo or details this is the time to ask! Here is what I would recommend for the core assembly. First question...how thick is each sheet of plywood? The goal for final thickness of the transom, including fiberglass skins, should be at least 1 1/2" thick. I would not worry about putting fiberglass between each sheet of plywood. Instead, use a good grade of epoxy or vinylester resin to bond each sheet of plywood together. Vinylester has a stronger adhesion strenght than polyester resin, but not as strong as epoxy. I used vynilester on my boat and it has held up fine for bonding cores together. Vynilester is cheaper than epoxy, but more than polyester resin. Once you have the transom core bedded to the fiberglass skin, you can go back to polyester resin for the rest of the fiberglassing. Be sure you get the hardner mixed properly. If using vynilester resin, I recommend cooling the resin in a refrigerator for 12 hours prior to using as this will get you an extended set-up time. First coat the mating surfaces with a layer of epoxy or vynilester and let it set for 10-15 minutes so the wood can have a chance to absorb the epoxy or vynilester. Then go back with a thickened coat of epoxy or vynilester and cabosil on the wetted out surfaces, position together and clamp around the perimeter. Also run some screws into the wood every 8 - 12 inches to pull the sheets up tight to each other and get rid of any potential voids. Once that sets up, remove the screws then repeat the same step for the last sheet of plywood, screw and clamp. Once that has all set up, remove all screws and dry fit the wood core in place. Using the epoxy or vynilester, do the same process all over again on the surface of plywood that will mate to the transom; a regular coat of epoxy or vynilester on the wood, let it sit for 10-15 minutes, then a heavy coat of thickened epoxy or vynilester. Also be sure to coat the edges of the transom core at this time to insure they are totally sealed. They may require 2 coats as that end grain wood will soak up the epoxy or vynilester. Lay a heavy bead of thickened epoxy or vynilester in the hull where the transom and hull sides and bottom meet. Then position the wood core in place, work it into that bead of epoxy or vynilester so it squeezes out somewhat, then clamp in place and run some screws through the back fiberglass skin into the core to pull it up tight against the fiberglass. Let sit for 24 hours. At this time, clean up any squeeze out on the inside of the transom and fill in any voids with more thickened epoxy or vynilester where needed. Use a piece of 1" pvc pipe to run down the transom where the epoxy has squeezed out to make a rounded filet between the wood core and the hull. This is necessary to have a smooth transition when glassing the plywood to the hull. Thats all for tonight. I will continue this discussion tomorrow.
  9. plib response 10/13/12019: Well as you can see also the transom is gone. It was 2 pieces of plywood glassed together. The inner piece at the bottom was rotten and forced me to undergo a full transom rebuild. Also both stringer(?) were rotten even if full wrapped in 1 cm thick fiberglass. The only way water could reach them were the two through drains ( fishing well and cable well) leaking. This make me think that every hole through a sandwich built boat sooner or later will be the cause of a disaster no matter what you do to prevent it. This is also my big concern on how to rebuild it. All this through holes for the engines and drains are a nightmare. Any advice would be appreciated on how to permanently seal them. and a follow up 10/14/2019: Here the update to this morning. Boat is ready for the rebuild. The plywood has been cut and all the transom properly cleaned for glassing. I will put 3 layer on the internal part of the transom, then the first sheet of plywood and 3 more layer of fiberglass. Wait to dry before putting and fiberglassing the 2 sheet. I will attach some photo of today. I think the boat is a 1982 5m cc robalo. The hull number or what is left is on a photo attached. If you need some specific photo or details this is the time to ask! And myc comment to all regarding the HI N: Now here is where I get confused and hopefully someone else can figure this out. This number does not correspond to anything i can recall. The hull looks correct from the prior picture where the teak and rubrail look correct.
  10. plib response on 10/13/2019 (yes...almost 7 months later!): Finally after long thinking the boat is undergoing some work at the boatyard. I am writing this hoping that will be posted on the forum and will be useful for others having my same issues. As you can see from the photos I open up transom and motor well. I did this because: 1. I was not comfortable not having a pump in the bilge and more so not having access to it 2. I was getting a lot of water inside the real bilge 3. I was having this pipe coming in the motor well blocked and coming from nowhere. As of now I can say that the transom is in great shape and needs no work. The white pipe in the motor well is actually for draining the water in the front (bow?) compartment of the boat and will be unclogged. The original foam is still dry and waterproof ( as you can see I had to remove it a bit and will be replaced accordingly). I will fit a bilge pump at the bottom of the bilge accessible via a hatch in the motor well and a second pump in the motor well to drain the water from it. Apparently the water coming from the garboard drain was coming from very small cracks in the keel done by the previuos owner. I will update with photos the working progress. Well as you can see also the transom is gone. It was 2 pieces of plywood glassed together. The inner piece at the bottom was rotten and forced me to undergo a full transom rebuild. Also both stringer(?) were rotten even if full wrapped in 1 cm thick fiberglass. The only way water could reach them were the two through drains ( fishing well and cable well) leaking. This make me think that every hole through a sandwich built boat sooner or later will be the cause of a disaster no matter what you do to prevent it. This is also my big concern on how to rebuild it. All this through holes for the engines and drains are a nightmare. Any advice would be appreciated on how to permanently seal them. Regards
  11. my response on 3/27/2019: Not so fast thinking there is a big problem! Try sealing around those two tubes and lets see if that cuts down on the amount of water seeping into the bilge area. If that gets the water issue under control to the point of maybe only a gallon of water at the most drains out at the end of the day, I would be reluctant to cut into the back to modify the bilge access. If you decide to add the bilge access, a Bowmar is one of the better quality manufacturers: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/bomar--inspection-hatches--P024_720_002_502 Hull id number should be located on the starboard side of the transom, just under the rub rail. It will be molded into the hull. And I will hold off for now on starting a thread on the boat. Honestly, though, someone may read it and provide other suggestions to try. If nothing else, post some fishing reports on the web site on what you catch there. It would be interesting to see how you fish over there and what species are caught!
  12. plib response on 3/27/2019: Here in Oman the fishing season is about to start and all the work on the boat is going to be postponed in the summer. As I understood the only way to fix things is to unmount the engines and open the transom and deck. A big big job! Probably would be better to wait to open a new thread in the forum until we have more photos ( transom and deck open) and infos. Anyway is up to you. Besides is even possible that we will get more help in this way. I will make in the weekend ( week end here is friday saturday) some more photos. Is there on the boat something like the vin number for the cars to identify the boat?
  13. my response on 3/25/2019: I am not 100% sure on the 1820, but on my boat the bilge area was made up of the two main stringers forming the sides of the bilge and a thin fiberglass bulkhead forming the forward side of the area. The concept was that this formed an area to contain the foam when it was poured into the hull during manufacturing. I don’t think the bilge can be accessed from in front of your splash board. Once way you could try to confirm if it is possible is to run a stiff piece of wire through the garboard drain and angle it up slightly while pushing it as far in as possible. Put a piece of tape on the wire indicating where it stopped, then pull out and lay on top of the transom and see where the end of the wire stops. Let me know where it indicates that forward bulkhead is located. As to why Robalo did not have an inspection port to access the bilge, these older boats were built as entry level boats for people just getting into it. I am willing to bet Robalo never thought these hulls would still be around 30-40 years later when they were built. In 1986, they did start adding an inspection port to gain access to the bilge. I am willing to bet this was due to a lot of feedback from both dealers and owners. To be honest, though, some of your foam will be holding a little water based on what I found when I re-did my transom. Over time, the constant pounding and vibrations in the hull while running tend to rupture the closed cell foam that is laying on the bottom of the hull. Once those cells are “popped”, they can and will retain some water. I found areas in my boat where the bottom ½ to 1 inches of the foam were wet. It is not something to worry too much about as all boats are going to have this issue to some degree.
  14. plib response on 3/25/2019: Thank you for your help. Truly a goldmine of informations. I will try to answer as best as I can to your questions. In case no problem for me to take more pictures. The drain hole between the two engines is about 2 cm from the bottom of the well and for this reason I always have to remove manually with a sponge any remaining water that the pump is not able to catch. Basically the deck has 2 drain holes ( the one without the bung on the photo plus another on the other side) then on each side of the well there is a rectangular box (one is the baits well and in the other are passing all the engines and fuel cables)( solid glass like the motor well) each with its own drain in the motor well. Finally there is the motor well drain and the garboard drain ( threaded metal). The bung in the pipe seems glued on it so why put it there if not using it. First thing I will follow your advice and try to seal the area around the pipe ( seems to me logic starting by simple things and proceed by exclusions). I am a little worried about the consequences on the foam in the garboard ( or is it completely sealed?) from the water always there. Besides I do not understand why Robalo did not let the possibility to check this area without breaking the bottom of the well. Are you sure is not possible to check that area after removing the afterward part of the deck?
  15. My response on 3/24/2019: The pictures are definitely a big help! In the first picture, the bilge pump is in the motor well / wet well. Primary function of this area is to allow control cables and fuel lines some place to hang when the motors are trimmed all the way up. If the well was not present, it is a good chance the cables and lines would get pinched or an extremely sharp bend result in the control cables and have adverse effects later on. Where the stainless plate extends across the back of the transom, it blocking the drains that go through the transom (there are either 2 or 4 drains…not sure on the 1820 but 2160 had 4) If so, prior owner installed the bilge pump as a way to get rid of that water and not have to carry all that water weight. The proper thing to do would be to drill the plate so the drains were opened up, but with the plate on both the inside and outside of the transom, it would be impossible to even guess where they were located. When I look at the picture of the transom from outside the boat, I see the one drain between the 2 motors. How high is it above the bottom of the wet well? It looks like someone has made some modifications to the back of the boat. Is that a solid glassed piece extending from one side of boat to the other next to the factory boxes / storage area where the cables are exiting in the first picture? The factory set-up was a flip-up splash guard that normally sat in a recessed area in the floor. Does the deck drain through the two upper drains that are not plugged? That lower drain with the bung in it, if you flip the lever on it so it is straight out it should let the rubber plug shrink enough to remove (unless it is glued in like you suggested). The other thing I see about that drain tube is the lack of any sealant around it; that could be the source of the water leaking into the bilge under the wet well. Definitely dry it as good as possible then run a bead of marine sealant around that tube where it passes through the fiberglass. Check the one on the other side, too. The garboard drain looks like it has been sealed with clear silicone, so that may not be contributing to the water leaking into the bilge. Is the plug that goes in there a threaded plug or a rubber one. If rubber, check the condition of the plug to be sure it has not cracked due to dry rot. Those rubber plugs can also leak through the center where the bolt passes through that expands them once installed. Plugs are cheap, so if it looks questionable, I would replace it. As for access to the bilge on the 1820, Robalo did not install any way to get in there on the older boats. The area just in front of the garboard drain is a fiberglass box surrounded by foam. Any water that got into the hull would make its way to the drain. Since they are foam filled hulls, that was the rationale for Robalo not installing an access that could potentially leak. We have had a few members that cut their own access into the bilge just so they could have the peace of mind of being able to get into it and install a bilge pump. If you want to go through the aggravation of doing it, I totally understand. Just be sure to use a good quality water proof access method in the wet well as this is the only place to be able to access the space. Bowmar makes some really good hatches if you decide to go this route. Hope this helps, Luca. Let me know if you have additional questions or want to run any suggestions by me. I don’t mind helping out.
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